Wednesday, June 5, 2013

Wiktionary - Recent changes [en]: Appendix talk:Terms considered difficult or impossible to translate into English

Wiktionary - Recent changes [en]
Track the most recent changes to the wiki in this feed. // via fulltextrssfeed.com
Appendix talk:Terms considered difficult or impossible to translate into English
Jun 6th 2013, 00:38

Line 84: Line 84:
 

::: I must admit, I was a bit taken by the breadth of the thing. Thanks for the tip! Of course, we can still check out and vet some of the words that he claims have no English analog. [[User:BD2412|<font style="background:lightgreen">''bd2412''</font>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 23:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

  

::: I must admit, I was a bit taken by the breadth of the thing. Thanks for the tip! Of course, we can still check out and vet some of the words that he claims have no English analog. [[User:BD2412|<font style="background:lightgreen">''bd2412''</font>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 23:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
   
−

::::Actually, I would encourage you (or anyone) to use popular literature like this as a place for finding acceptable terms, because, even if 80% of the entire book is flawed, that still means we'll get some really good ones out of it. If there is any question about a term (i.e., one we don't have an entry about) then it should be carefully researched before its addition, but any term that even could potentially be a candidate should be brought to this talk page for discussion. <span style="background:black;color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''''—&nbsp;'''''[[w:User:CMBJ|<span style="background:black;color:white">'''''C&nbsp;M&nbsp;B&nbsp;J'''''</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> 00:37, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

 +

::::Actually, I would encourage you (or anyone) to use popular literature like this as a place for finding acceptable terms, because, even if 80% of the entire book is flawed, that still means we'll get some really good ones out of it. If there is any question about a term (i.e., one we don't have an entry about) then it should be carefully researched before its addition, but any term that even could potentially be a candidate should be brought to this talk page for discussion, both because it may in fact be acceptable and because if it isn't then we need to have it archived to that effect. <span style="background:black;color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''''—&nbsp;'''''[[w:User:CMBJ|<span style="background:black;color:white">'''''C&nbsp;M&nbsp;B&nbsp;J'''''</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> 00:37, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
   
 

== Finnish [[sisu]] ==

  

== Finnish [[sisu]] ==

Latest revision as of 00:38, 6 June 2013

Contents

I consider this appendix's title to be appropriate, but it's not set in stone if anyone has a really good idea for improvement.   — C M B J   10:03, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I would say that these are words with no direct English translation. Some are not necessarily hard to translate, but there is no English analog, so the translations are wordy. bd2412 T 13:31, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I don't have strong feelings about the title, but just as a thought, BD2412's comment above said it quite well, so how about a title that paraphrases that: "Terms without close analogs in English"? That would be more concise, and it would avoid the word "translation," which has prompted some objections.--Haplology (talk) 15:11, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
The term 'considered' bothers me; what if one author considers a word impossible to translate but others don't? The way I interpret the current title, is that as long as an acceptable source says that a word is impossible to translate into English, I doesn't matter if other sources, no matter how many, consider that there is a translation. Mglovesfun (talk) 17:50, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Loanwords[edit]

Any thoughts on how semi-obscure loanwords that have recently been assimilated into English (e.g., schadenfreude) should be handled?   — C M B J   10:05, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

If they have been assimilated into English, they have an English translation. — Ungoliant (Falai) 11:40, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
That's more or less what I was thinking, but how do we make that determination and where do we draw the line? Schadenfreude was not something that ever really entered the English lexicon, it was just a foreign curiosity enjoyed by a small subset of English speakers that then gained popularity with the advent of the Internet. This is something of a meta-consideration because our appendix may eventually lead to similar exposure of some terms.   — C M B J   11:59, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Editnotice[edit]

An editnotice needs to be drafted and created as per previous discussion.   — C M B J   10:32, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Ungoliant's draft

"Do not add words that don't have entries, or whose definitions do not match the definitions listed by the entry. Create the entry first."

Possible candidates[edit]

  • bakku-shan (Japanese) - An ugly woman who is beautiful from behind.[1]
See バックシャン (​bakkushan). I dimly recall hearing of an English slang word that fit this meaning to a T, but I can't remember what it was. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:42, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Butterface? —Angr 12:28, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I want to say that I've heard some obscure English slang for this in the past, but I don't think butterface captures the directionality or sense of ambush in the same exact way.   — C M B J   13:03, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
  • espirit d'escalier (French) - To think of the perfect verbal comeback much too late.[1]
    Doesn't look like it's a verb. — Ungoliant (Falai) 15:32, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
  • mamihlapinatapai (Yaghan) - A look between two people that suggests an unspoken, shared desire.[1]
  • Backpfeifengesicht (German) - A face badly in need of a fist.[1]
  • nunchi (Korean) - The innate ability to sense what would be the wrong thing to say in a given situation.[1]
  • desenrascanco (Portuguese) - To pull a MacGyver.[1]
    desenrascanço, which is not a verb and has translations. — Ungoliant (Falai) 15:32, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
  • tingo (Pascuense) - To borrow from a friend until he has nothing left.[1]
    Probably false meaning (see Talk:tingo), but I can't think of a translation of the real meaning. — Ungoliant (Falai) 15:32, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
  • שלימזל (shlimazl) (Yiddish) - Someone who has nothing but bad luck.[1]
    A bit like schadenfreude, as we do say shlimazel in English. —Angr 12:28, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
    dreamer? — Ungoliant (Falai) 15:32, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
    No, just someone with bad luck. There's a saying that Yiddish has two words for perpetually unlucky people: shlemiel and shlimazel. The shlemiel is the man who spills his soup, and the shlimazel is the man he spills it on. —Angr 16:17, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
    Ooops. I actually meant this for luftmensch. Sorry. — Ungoliant (Falai) 18:39, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
  • sgiomlaireachd (Scottish Gaelic) - When someone pops in and interrupts meal time.[1]
  • たてまえ (tatemae) and ほんね (honne) (Japanese) - What one pretends to believe and what one actually believes, respectively.[1]
Tatemae is basically a compound, not so far removed semantically from window dressing. Meanwhile, honne is also a compound, and not so far removed from true feelings. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:42, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
  • тоска (toska) (Russian) Vladmir Nabokov describes it best: "No single word in English renders all the shades of toska. At its deepest and most painful, it is a sensation of great spiritual anguish, often without any specific cause. At less morbid levels it is a dull ache of the soul, a longing with nothing to long for, a sick pining, a vague restlessness, mental throes, yearning. In particular cases it may be the desire for somebody of something specific, nostalgia, love-sickness. At the lowest level it grades into ennui, boredom."[2]
    тоска (toská) --Vahag (talk) 11:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
  • jayus (Indonesian) – A joke so poorly told and so unfunny that one cannot help but laugh.[2]
  • litost (Czech) - A state of agony and torment caused by the sudden sight of one's own misery.[2]
    lítost --Vahag (talk) 11:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
  • kyoikumama (Japanese) – A mother who relentlessly pushes her children toward academic achievement.[2]
Also a compound, and actually a phrase, not a single word. See 教育ママ (​kyōiku mama) (also at w:ja:教育ママ and w:Kyoiku mama, since we're missing it here at the moment). Mirrored in English by the recent buzzword tiger mom, or somewhat by the term helicopter parent that I've heard bandied about by teachers (though admittedly the meaning of that one is a bit further off). -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:42, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
  • helicopter parent. — Ungoliant (Falai) 15:32, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
  • tartle (Scottish) – The act of hesitating while introducing someone because you've forgotten their name.[2]
  • ilunga (Tshiluba) – Someone who is ready to forgive and forget any first abuse, tolerate it the second time, but never forgive nor tolerate on the third offense.[2]
  • prozvonit (Czech) – To call a mobile phone and let it ring once so that the other person will call back, saving the first caller money.[2]
    Armenian has the exact same thing: ծնգցնել (cngcʿnel) --Vahag (talk) 11:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
  • cafuné (Brazilian Portuguese) – The act of tenderly running one's fingers through someone's hair.[2]
  •  (ya'aburnee) (Arabic) - Simultaneously morbid and beautiful.[2]
    Looks to be يقبرني (yaqaburnī; Levantine and Egyptian pron.: yaʾaburnī), but it has a different meaning. --Z 15:30, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
  • zhaghzhagh (Persian)  - The chattering of teeth from the cold or from rage.[3]
    ژغژغ (žaġžaġ) --Vahag (talk) 11:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
  • yuputka (Ulwa) - A word made for walking in the woods at night, it refers to the phantom sensation of something crawling on one's skin.[3]
  • slampadato (Italian) – An addiction to the UV glow of tanning salons.[3]
  • לופֿטמענטש (luftmentsh) (Yiddish) - An impractical dreamer with no business sense. Literally, air person.[3]
  • iktsuarpok (Inuit) - The feeling of anticipation while waiting for someone to arrive at one's house and meanwhile intermittently going outside to check for them.[3]
  • cotisuelto (Caribbean Spanish) - One who wears the shirt tail outside of their trousers.[3]
  • glas wen (Welsh) - A smile that is insincere or mocking. Literally, a blue smile.[3]
  • pana poʻo (Hawaiian) - To scratch one's head in order to recover a memory.[3]
  • gumusservi (Turkish) - A scene in which moonlight shines on water.[3]
    gümüşservi --Vahag (talk) 11:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
  • vybafnout (Czech) - To jump out and say boo.[3]
  • mencolek (Indonesian) - To tap someone lightly on the opposite shoulder from behind as a trick.[3]
  • faamiti (Samoan) - To make a squeaking sound by sucking air past the lips in order to gain the attention of a dog or child.[3]
  • ぼけっと (boketto) (Japanese) - To gaze vacantly into the distance without thinking.[3]
This is an adverb, not a verb. Compare English vapidly or vacantly. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:42, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Sitzriese (German) – a person who appears tall when they are sitting, but short when they stand. (Was added to the main page but I removed it as a red link. —Angr 13:57, 5 June 2013 (UTC))
  1. ↑ 1.01.11.21.31.41.51.61.71.81.9 R., Ashton (2009-04-13), "The 10 Coolest Foreign Words The English Language Needs", Cracked. Demand Media.
  2. ↑ 2.02.12.22.32.42.52.62.72.8 Wire, Jason, "20 awesomely untranslatable words from around the world", Matador, 2010-10-09.
  3. ↑ 3.003.013.023.033.043.053.063.073.083.093.103.113.12 "15 Wonderful Words With No English Equivalent", mental_floss, 2011-07-22.

List copied from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Others#Category:Terms without an English counterpart.   — C M B J   10:39, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I have found an excellent book, The Meaning of Tingo, which is full of terms falling within this category. bd2412 T 22:13, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
That book is not a good resource. It's full of made-up, incorrect and exaggerated meanings. See Talk:tingo#An analysis of Portuguese terms in The Meaning of Tingo for examples of how seriously the author misinterprets words. — Ungoliant (Falai) 22:32, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I must admit, I was a bit taken by the breadth of the thing. Thanks for the tip! Of course, we can still check out and vet some of the words that he claims have no English analog. bd2412 T 23:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Actually, I would encourage you (or anyone) to use popular literature like this as a place for finding acceptable terms, because, even if 80% of the entire book is flawed, that still means we'll get some really good ones out of it. If there is any question about a term (i.e., one we don't have an entry about) then it should be carefully researched before its addition, but any term that even could potentially be a candidate should be brought to this talk page for discussion, both because it may in fact be acceptable and because if it isn't then we need to have it archived to that effect.   — C M B J   00:37, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

"Determination regardless of cost": determination, perseverance, or... sisu#English. — Ungoliant (Falai) 13:08, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

w:Sisu seems to make a pretty compelling case for the original Finnish sense.   — C M B J   13:13, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm not contesting its existence, I'm contesting that it doesn't have an English translation. — Ungoliant (Falai) 13:19, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
But is the English translation equivalent? The #English section doesn't capture it's original Finnish meaning, whereas schadenfreude completely does, for example.   — C M B J   13:26, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
According to the definition, it refers specifically to it as a part of Finnish culture, so I guess it was loaned specifically to capture the Finnish meaning. But in any case, I oppose adding words whose translation don't "capture" its meaning. If it is accurate to use an English word to translate another, then it has a translation, even if the translation doesn't capture 100% every implication or shades of meaning that the other has. Otherwise we might as well add half the world's words with an abstract meaning. For example, the English word to love doesn't capture the exact shades of meaning that Portuguese amar does, but to claim to love does not translate amar is completely incorrect. — Ungoliant (Falai) 14:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
That's not quite what I was trying to get at here. It's fine that love and amar may differ slightly, but is the English sense of Sisu a translation or a derivative of the Finnish sense? Sometimes new variants of foreign words will be adopted in another language.   — C M B J   14:49, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Looks like it's both. — Ungoliant (Falai) 14:56, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Although it seems we can't keep the word in this appendix since the English sisu does count as a translation(?), however I think it's a good idea to keep these terms -- which are produced in a certain culture and don't have equivalent in other ones or between English-speakers at least -- somewhere. Maybe we should change the title and/or the purpose of the appendix a bit. --Z 16:20, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Since the "meaning" column of the table is precisely showing translations of the terms in question, how are they "difficult or impossible to translate"? Translation is not, and never has been, about turning one word in the source language into one other word in the target language. Ƿidsiþ 13:13, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

It's a matter of opinion, I suppose, but personally I'm laying in bed and can't put my phone down and go to sleep because everyone else's contributions have been so interesting.   — C M B J   13:21, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes they are very interesting, but you seem to be confusing "untranslatability" with "lack of a single one-word equivalent". French regarder requires two words to be translated into English, but it's not untranslatable, so what are the criteria here? Ƿidsiþ 13:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Lack of a single equivalent term is the idea, i.e. that which cannot be translated without going into literal description.   — C M B J   13:34, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what translation is; it's not about transcoding one word into another word. This is one reason why linguists are very skeptical about claims of amazing untranslatable words...see e.g. this discussion, which refers to several of the words on this list. Ƿidsiþ 13:40, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm no stranger to tingo after getting caught up in that word's discussion and I'm pretty sure I bumped into this article in the course of that, but the core issue of concern in this area seems to be quality. We actually have people from all around the world who have a pretty good command of just about every language, so we can make consensus-driven revisions that correct these shortcomings.   — C M B J   13:56, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
  • I do like the idea of countering the pop-linguistic trend described in the Language Log post linked to above by providing a list of terms whose actual meanings and spellings have been verified. —Angr 14:07, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
    Fair enough, and I find a lot of these words interesting too. But they are not difficult or impossible to translate – they just don't all have convenient single-word equivalents. Which is not the same thing. Ƿidsiþ 14:27, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
It's important to distinguish between single-term and single-word equivalents, because terms and words are objects but multiple word translations convey meaning by description.   — C M B J   14:35, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Technically I agree with Widsith here; if you can translate a term using a sentence, you are translating it nonetheless. Mglovesfun (talk) 17:52, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Sure, you're still making that term's meaning understandable in another language, but it's only through the power of human description and understanding. In contrast, think of how systems view translation. They identify objects, find equivalents, and process them according to a target language-specific semantic algorithm.   — C M B J   00:02, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Red links[edit]

I'm a little baffled why the request not to add red links to the main page was removed. I think it's a good idea to store red links here on the talk page until their entries are created and verified. —Angr 14:25, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

See User talk:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV#New appendix. I agree with putting it back though. — Ungoliant (Falai) 14:28, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
It was removed at my suggestion because there were a lot of great red links pouring in. I think that everyone who has this appendix on their radar right now knows what should and shouldn't be considered appropriate. If they don't, we'll move problematic terms back to the talk page after a reasonable grace period.   — C M B J   14:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Skinship. — Ungoliant (Falai) 15:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Often glossed as dear, but that really doesn't cover it. My wife and I often wind up just saying things like "wow, that's so natsukashii" because no EN term covers the bases. This word can be explained, and there might be appropriate glosses in specific contexts (dear can sometimes be made to fit), but there isn't any one- or two-word rendering that I can find for this in English.

Our entry here could use some expansion, and definitely some quotes and/or usexes. For reference in this discussion, also see Weblio's JA→EN entry. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 15:43, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

taarof. — Ungoliant (Falai) 15:58, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Is it really an English word? Seems to be just a transliteration, and I think this actually proves that it doesn't have any equivalent in the language... --Z 16:13, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Sounds like another example like Schadenfreude, shlimazel, and sisu already being discussed above. The fact that a lot of these words with no obvious English analogues get picked up and used in English means we have to start working on boundaries. I really don't want to see déjà vu or chutzpah here on the grounds that we don't have a word for it in English. I say, if the English loanword meets CFI by being used (and not merely mentioned) 3 times in durably archived sources over at least a year, the foreign word can no longer be said to have no English translation, because it has become its own English translation. —Angr 16:53, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I agree. --Z 17:05, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
This calls to my gulliver just a skosh about something in one of Bill Bryson's books, that English is a language that waits in dark alleys to hit other languages over the head, and then goes through their pockets for loose vocabulary. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:54, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Haha. --Z 17:58, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
The original quote, which is from James Nicoll and not Bill Bryson, can be found on my Wikipedia userpage. —Angr 19:29, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I don't think it's just a transliteration. Enough Google Books results show this word used in English text as if it were any other. One can't reasonably expect English to have a native word describing a concept unique to Persian society. — Ungoliant (Falai) 18:49, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes, it seems it meets the CFI. --Z 19:07, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Say, what is the rule on commonly transliterated words from non-English alphabets, like konichiwa? bd2412 T 00:07, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
konnichi wa, Template:ja-romaji/documentation. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:12, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

It's one of those that I can never think of a translation of, other than just explaining the word. Not necessarily relevant but I'd consider this word a noun too, but many French adjectives can be used substantively .Mglovesfun (talk) 17:55, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

nesh? — Ungoliant (Falai) 19:14, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
An excellent example of how this can be subjective. There's a definite overlap the way they are worded (wording can change at any time, remember, this is a wiki). Is there enough of an overlap for this to be considered translatable? I'd say yes, but I can't really back that up with any evidence. Mglovesfun (talk) 19:18, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

A second-hand shop for media (CDs, tapes, vinyl records, books, magazines). Second-hand appliances, clothes, furniture, etc. are not sold in a sebo. — Ungoliant (Falai) 19:26, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Fare dodger, stowaway, deadhead. If these are not acceptable translations, then Russian заяц should be added too, as it means the same thing. --Vahag (talk) 21:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Nah, I guess you're right. Fare dodger especially is a good translation. I've added both Schwarzfahrer and заяц to the translation table at fare dodger. —Angr 22:15, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
You are receiving this email because you subscribed to this feed at blogtrottr.com.

If you no longer wish to receive these emails, you can unsubscribe from this feed, or manage all your subscriptions