| Wiktionary:Beer parlour Nov 2nd 2011, 23:40 Gheg Albanian: | ← Older revision | Revision as of 23:40, 2 November 2011 | | Line 1,808: | Line 1,808: | | | :: Like Anatoli suggested, people from Tirana and Pristina will understand each other fine. Maybe not perfectly, but certainly as well as someone from Valley Forge and Edinburgh. — <font face="Lucida console"><small>['''[[User:Dick Laurent|Ric]]''' [[User talk:Dick Laurent|Laurent]]]</small></font> — 23:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC) | | :: Like Anatoli suggested, people from Tirana and Pristina will understand each other fine. Maybe not perfectly, but certainly as well as someone from Valley Forge and Edinburgh. — <font face="Lucida console"><small>['''[[User:Dick Laurent|Ric]]''' [[User talk:Dick Laurent|Laurent]]]</small></font> — 23:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC) | | | :::I'm not aware of Anatoli having said that. Because Gheg speakers also come into contact with the Standard (Tosk), they learn to understand it. This is passive bilingualism, not mutual intelligibility. (Cf. in former Czechoslovakia speakers of Czech and Slovak could communicate with each other in their own native language, not because Czech and Slovak are mutually intelligible, but because each was a passive speaker of the other. The young generation of today has not (passively) learned the other's language and they have trouble talking to each other). {{unsigned|JorisvS}} | | :::I'm not aware of Anatoli having said that. Because Gheg speakers also come into contact with the Standard (Tosk), they learn to understand it. This is passive bilingualism, not mutual intelligibility. (Cf. in former Czechoslovakia speakers of Czech and Slovak could communicate with each other in their own native language, not because Czech and Slovak are mutually intelligible, but because each was a passive speaker of the other. The young generation of today has not (passively) learned the other's language and they have trouble talking to each other). {{unsigned|JorisvS}} | | | + | | | | + | ::: You aren't aware of Anatoli saying that because he didn't - he was talking about standard Albanian and the Gheg they speak in Kosovo. I used the city names. | | | + | ::: I study standard Albanian and Tosk. I used to talk to a young guy from Kosovo and we understood each other perfectly fine. You can resist this simple fact all you want, but the fact remains that Gheg and Tosk are no more different languages than what they speak in Texas vs what they speak in Dublin. There are certainly dialectal differences, and understanding may come with a bit of strain at places, but the existence of a Gheg incubator does not make Gheg its own language. Ask people who speak Gheg what they speak, and they say Albanian. That's not some wild coincidence. Most words are the same or identical, inflection is identical. Anyone with even the most basic knowledge of Albanian like myself can read that Gheg article about Albania you linked to and understand it with little trouble at all, even if they aren't particularly familiar with the quirks of Gheg beforehand. — <font face="Lucida console"><small>['''[[User:Dick Laurent|Ric]]''' [[User talk:Dick Laurent|Laurent]]]</small></font> — 23:40, 2 November 2011 (UTC) | | | | | | | | ::::This is a digress but mutual intelligibility is a tricky thing. Languages can be extremely close but still hard to understand without some exposure. What makes languages mutually intelligible is understanding the pronunciation, knowing how sounds change. Even very short exposure to a similar language can open these secrets. Czech and Slovak, like Russian/Ukrainian/Belarusian are extremely mutually intelligible, Slavic languages have up to 60% of common vocabulary and up to 80% or more in closer languages but pronunciation and other factors confuse people who never heard a language. Of course, nationalists will disagree and will highlight differences, rather than making some effort to understand. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli]] 23:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC) | | ::::This is a digress but mutual intelligibility is a tricky thing. Languages can be extremely close but still hard to understand without some exposure. What makes languages mutually intelligible is understanding the pronunciation, knowing how sounds change. Even very short exposure to a similar language can open these secrets. Czech and Slovak, like Russian/Ukrainian/Belarusian are extremely mutually intelligible, Slavic languages have up to 60% of common vocabulary and up to 80% or more in closer languages but pronunciation and other factors confuse people who never heard a language. Of course, nationalists will disagree and will highlight differences, rather than making some effort to understand. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli]] 23:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC) | | | + | | | | + | ::::: I've studied standard Albanian and understand Gheg just fine. Not only are the vast majority of words the same or very similar (like sodomize vs sodomise) but inflection is identical. They're not two languages, Tosk and Gheg. This is a simple fact to which one person around here seems to be highly resistant. — <font face="Lucida console"><small>['''[[User:Dick Laurent|Ric]]''' [[User talk:Dick Laurent|Laurent]]]</small></font> — 23:40, 2 November 2011 (UTC) | | | | | | | | :: Apropo, it wouldn't surprise me if there were pockets of people in the Tosk regions who speak some local dialect that's completely unintelligible to all other Albanian speakers, just like if I were to drive 2 hours to the East I have no idea what the fuck any of those damn Hyde-county rednecks are talking about. — <font face="Lucida console"><small>['''[[User:Dick Laurent|Ric]]''' [[User talk:Dick Laurent|Laurent]]]</small></font> — 23:04, 2 November 2011 (UTC) | | :: Apropo, it wouldn't surprise me if there were pockets of people in the Tosk regions who speak some local dialect that's completely unintelligible to all other Albanian speakers, just like if I were to drive 2 hours to the East I have no idea what the fuck any of those damn Hyde-county rednecks are talking about. — <font face="Lucida console"><small>['''[[User:Dick Laurent|Ric]]''' [[User talk:Dick Laurent|Laurent]]]</small></font> — 23:04, 2 November 2011 (UTC) | | |
