Wednesday, April 10, 2013

Wiktionary - Recent changes [en]: User talk:Wyang

Wiktionary - Recent changes [en]
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User talk:Wyang
Apr 11th 2013, 01:40

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::Wow! That was quick. Thank you! Will test and come with some feedback. Japanese can be basic and more complex, depends how far you're willing to go. Didn't give as I didn't know if you would agree. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 01:36, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

  

::Wow! That was quick. Thank you! Will test and come with some feedback. Japanese can be basic and more complex, depends how far you're willing to go. Didn't give as I didn't know if you would agree. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 01:36, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
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:::Japanese should be alright. Forms are easy to detect (see if it's a pure hiragana or katakana string, assign it as such if so; otherwise, kanji if no kana present, mixed if kana present), and script conversion shouldn't be an issue as well (hira to kana and to romaji, or the reverses, depending on requirement). [[User:Wyang|Wyang]] ([[User talk:Wyang|talk]]) 01:40, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 01:40, 11 April 2013

Contents

As far as I know, no one has expressed an opinion on the edits you tried to retract. I accidentally blocked the IP that added them (presumably you), but I thought I was blocking another IP when I did it. I unblocked the first IP as soon as I discovered my error. My apologies for any misunderstanding. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:12, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

All those IPs were me. Wyang (talk) 09:53, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure there are lots of people from other countries who disagree with the way we drive on the right side of the road in the US, but I've never heard of any of them driving on the left side just to make a point- it wouldn't change anything important, but it sure would make a mess of things... Chuck Entz (talk) 11:29, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
You are using an inappropriate analogy. Driving on which side of the road is unimportant because the purpose of driving is to reach a destination, and the options are basically equally efficient in this respect. But here the right side of the road is full of bumps and hollows and may not even lead to the desired destination, whilst the left side is well-paved and -targeted. I know this has been raised a zillion times but whenever the issue was raised, the decision-making coterie has been reluctant to realise the benefits and opposed it fiercely. Yes the issue is complicated, but asking people to comply with whatever rules the previous people came up with but not the most logical rules is not the way to resolve this. This issue is going to be raised another zillion times and people need to examine the issue impartially and accept that a change in format is hugely beneficial to further editing. Wyang (talk) 10:38, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

What is this? Mglovesfun (talk) 11:01, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Could you please provide the pīnyīn transcription and translations of citations as separate lines instead of in a template? For an example of what I mean, see the quotation at Νεφελοκοκκυγία. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 08:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think Pinyin is necessary. Wyang (talk) 10:38, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
zh-n. is not an intuitive template, and traditionally any Wiktionary templates that use mouseover to show more information, like certain Persian conjugational templates (if my memory serves me well), have an obvious explanatory line at the top. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:16, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Note: Template talk:pinyin-analyser. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:20, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi,

Good job! Only điều bí mật is also a synonym for bí mật in my sources. Please add, don't replace words. Do you mind adding a {{Babel}} to your user page? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:02, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

điều bí mật just means "secret things", to emphasise that "bí mật" which has both adjective and noun senses, is used here as a noun. Same for sự which is used if the following word has both verb and noun senses. Wyang (talk) 10:39, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
About the header of Babel, I got into the weird part of YouTube, which I may not mind. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 10:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
The deal with words such as điều or sự is to display them, anyway. One can use alt=điều bí mật, e.g. điều bí mật (vi) (changing now). Oh, please don't be too sensitive on us using "cmn" instead of "zh". Your language hasn't been destroyed. We cover dialects as well, especially "yue" and "nan". We had long discussions and votes, so we had to compromise. If you add "cmn" in the Babel, users will know that you speak Chinese, especially its standard and most known form - Mandarin. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:43, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
zh-N, cmn-4 will appear as cmn-N, cmn-4. Wyang (talk) 00:33, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Not sure what you mean, sorry. Do you mean that {{User_cmn}} and {{User_cmn-4}} have wrong wordings? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:44, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I have replaced 中文 with 普通話/國語 and 普通话/国语 in language user templates, even though it doesn't cover all names for Mandarin, these templates separate Mandarin speakers from 粵語/粤语 speakers, etc. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:54, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I speak non-Mandarin Chinese natively (and I don't really know which branch of Chinese this dialect falls under under ISO 639), and can communicate well (4) in Modern Standard Chinese (MSC). I can't find templates to accurately describe this situation. {{User zh}} doesn't exist any more, and {{User cmn-4}} is confusing MSC (no code) with Mandarin (a group of Chinese dialects, code: cmn). Wyang (talk) 01:41, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
The branches ("dialects") are somewhat determinable by region... I'm sure you could figure out what it's called in English by the ISO if you look it up on Wikipedia. If you feel comfortable telling me where you grew up, I could help finding possibilities for you to check. I think grouping MSC with actual Beijing region dialects is probably the best way to solve that particular subproblem, just based on coverage and similarity. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:47, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
We don't have templates for all dialects. That maybe a problem but small dialects are usually not in big demand. You can add your dialect to your user page, so people could find you. We merge here Mandarin and MSC, treating entries/translations in standard Mandarin and Northern Chinese as one language. Using {{qualifier}}, marking words as regional dialects and using other means. Everything is solvable, you can even create templates for your dialect, discuss some technical details first. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:52, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Which dialect is unimportant, because that is too specific. It doesn't make sense that {{User zh}} doesn't exist, while {{User ar}} or {{User ms}} do. All are macrolanguages. Arabic or Malay speakers are likely to perceive themselves as speaking Arabic or Malay (not some variety that has an ISO code) when encountering non-speakers, the same way that Chinese speakers do. Wyang (talk) 02:37, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Standard or most common Arabic (including certain colloquialism common to various dialects, loanwords) us "ar". For dialects we have "ary", "arz", etc. Arabic wan't heavily discussed, we didn't have battles and multiple votes about. As I said, a while ago we have reached a compromise for translations:
  * Chinese:  *: Cantonese:  *: Mandarin:  *: Min Nan:  etc.
Having "Chinese" as the main header for entries was rejected by some of your compatriots and Taiwanese people and others. "Mandarin" is more specific than "Chinese". When one says "an Arabic word", no-one immediately question which variety, "a Chinese word" raises questions like "Mandarin or Cantonese". If we used zh instead of cmn, yue and nan a and "Chinese" instead of "Mandarin", "Cantonese" and "Min Nan" we would have a mix-up. In any case, things are the way they are, if you want to open this can of worms, then you can start a discussion in the Beer parlour. I personally don't want any change and other Chinese editors (native or learners) got used to the status quo. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:03, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Or,

  * Chinese:  *: Cantonese: [[安全]]  *: Classical Chinese: [[安全]]  *: Gan: [[安全]]  *: Hakka: [[安全]]  *: Huizhou: [[安全]]  *: Jinyu: [[安全]]  *: Mandarin: [[安全]]  *: Middle Chinese: [[安全]]  *: Min Bei: [[安全]]  *: Min Dong: [[安全]]  *: Min Nan: [[安全]]  *: Min Zhong: [[安全]]  *: Old Chinese: [[安全]]  *: Pu Xian: [[安全]]  *: Xiang: [[安全]]  *: Wu: [[安全]]

as in 祕密 or 安全. Specificness is hardly an improvement. Besides, equating "Mandarin" with (or using it to denote) "Standard Chinese" or "Written vernacular Chinese" is just outright wrong. Wyang (talk) 03:17, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

[edit] 谢谢！

Thank you for the great Mandarin entries, as well as the Korean bits... if you're ever looking for more red links to create, there are a bunch at User:Tooironic#Common Words that could use some attention. Again, thanks! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:30, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

OK. Is there a longer list? Wyang (talk) 05:35, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, there's also Appendix:HSK list of Mandarin words/Elementary Mandarin (almost done) + Intermediate + Advanced. Please use the HSK categories as in the example entries (most bluelinked belong to them) if you decide to work on them. Note the difference between trad. and simp. in categorizations. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. I've updated {{cmn new}} to account for those (damn) templates. Wyang (talk) 05:59, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I wouldn't have a clue how to use it but thanks. Perhaps it's just easier to create entries manually. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Awesome template! @Anatoli, I made a generalised version independently based on the same idea at {{new entry}}, but it's a lot worse because it's mainly for minority languages with less infrastructure. For this one, the documentation is currently at Template talk:cmn new. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:45, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I've seen it but I still don't understand. Do I need to add it to my User:Atitarev/common.js to be able to use it? What triggers this template and when and how do I use the parameters? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:04, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

From experience I know that very large switch statements like the one in that template are very slow. I hope you'll take that into account and not use this template often, or always substitute it. You can also try an alternative approach, by using subpages, one for each character, in the same way as {{langrev}}. That would be faster I think, especially when there are many options. —CodeCat 03:44, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

[edit] နေ

Hi, do both of the Proto-Sino-Tibetan words given at နေ really mean "sun, day"? Or does *g-na-s mean something else? —Angr 20:33, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, my bad. Corrected. Wyang (talk) 22:14, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Speaking of which, is နေ့ ("day") also from *nəj, in spite of the different tone? —Angr 21:26, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, according to Paul Benedict's Sino-Tibetan: A Conspectus. Wyang (talk) 11:05, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Q about cmn vs. msc

First off, many thanks for your various ZH and KO term additions! (I don't suppose you have any more detail about 아귀 etym 3, like first appearance or quotes or anything?)

I read above that "equating "Mandarin" with (or using it to denote) "Standard Chinese" or "Written vernacular Chinese" is just outright wrong." However, the EN WP article on Standard Chinese says right in the first line that MSC == Mandarin, leaving me confused. I ask purely out of ignorance -- I studied some 普通话 for a couple semesters in university, but most of my time is taken up with Japanese. Given my meager understanding of the wide varieties of Chinese, I'm left wondering what MSC as a spoken lect would equate to, if not Mandarin? I thought Mandarin was the proper English label for 普通话, and I thought too that 普通话 was the same thing as MSC, but perhaps I'm way off the mark? Does "Mandarin", as you understand it, mean the Beijing dialects more specifically? Curious, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:46, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. For agwi, I could only find quotations and dialectal forms (agu, akku), not Middle Korean forms. The addition of the obsolete sense of "mouth" by KYPark seems reasonable but needs checking though (may be dialectal instead; I only know of agari). A possible etymological connection between these is interesting: ag- ([1][2], ağız) is the common Altaic word for "mouth", "surviving" (from an Altaicist's POV) in Modern Korean as agari (derogatory: "mouth").
Wrt MSC, "Mandarin" is the name for a group of Chinese dialects, while MSC is a standardised variety of Chinese. There is no "Standard Mandarin" really, as MSC and written vernacular Chinese (the standardised written form of MSC) serve as de facto standards for spoken (in PRC, ROC, sg) and written (all Chinese-speaking regions) Chinese. Wyang (talk) 01:10, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks for both answers. Interesting about ag-; I note also that Turkish ağız purportedly derives from Proto-Turkic *āgıŕ, and that final "r" appears to have echoes in KO agari and JA anguri ("agape, gawping"). That said, JA anguri looks like it might ultimately derive from verb aku, "to open". That might still be traceable to Altaic "mouth" words, but it seems to get tenuous, unless Altaic also has words of similar sound that have to do with "opening". I note that KO 열다 (yeolda) doesn't seem to include any such ak or ag elements, though I suppose this might be the result of some phonetic change from an earlier form. That said, it looks like Old Turkic had aç- ("to open"), from Proto-Turkic *aç-, *ač- ("to open"), which is interestingly close to JA root ak "to open". -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 01:24, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, Wyang but I'm sure your answer to the second question is biased. In the Western world, "Mandarin" (language) stands for two things - 1) the most common Chinese dialect (or group of dialects) - 官话 (Guānhuà), 北方话 (Běifānghuà) and 2) the standard Chinese (Putonghua, Guoyu, Huayu) - 普通话 (Pǔtōnghuà), 国语 (Guóyǔ), 华语 (Huáyǔ). It's just a reality. People study Mandarin at universities. Even though "standard Chinese" would a more correct term, it's seldom used, even in academic circles. Dictionary names still use just "Chinese", e.g. Chinese-English dictionary. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:27, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes, but the majority of people who call it that probably think of Chinese as a simple dichotomy between Mandarin and Cantonese.. Wyang (talk) 02:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
There may be some who do but dictionaries only describe the language as it used. I can attest that Mandarin classes where people are especially aware what Mandarin actually is, still use either Mandarin or Chinese to refer to the standard Chinese language they study, even when they study standard Chinese. There are too many names and too many language codes. The current practice is not based on the lack of knowledge or confusion but a compromise. We use "Mandarin" header, even if we talk about Northern Chinese dialects (not a standard Chinese term), like 啥, etc. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:33, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I believe it is an inappropriate and inefficient compromise, as the 15 or so headings for Chinese will largely turn out to be reduplications of each other eventually. Wyang (talk) 03:43, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
You probably mean a different issue now. Words that are 95-99% identical in dialects but are split into Mandarin, Cantonese, etc.? There are not many editors eager to develop dialects. Min Nan and Cantonese are a slight exception. I don't think you'll have luck persuading the community to merge them into one language but if you stay longer, you may get a case. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:51, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
That's what I meant. Using "Mandarin" to denote something that should be more appropriately labelled "Chinese" only seems fine now because there is currently practically nil additions in other varieties, but it will increasingly appear less appropriate as the category of "Mandarin" start to become saturated and other varieties grow. Wyang (talk) 04:02, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Well, the community warmed up over time to merging Serbo-Croatian varieties, Romanian and Moldavian, Indonesian and Malay wasn't successful, Hindi and Urdu was never attempted. You can always try and raise it again at Beer parlour. What are you suggesting? Having ==Chinese== header and list all dialect pronunciations? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:12, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes, examples: compound, character. I agree with you; I too (highly) doubt this will pass if raised. Wyang (talk) 04:17, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Wyang, I'm on your side because lesser bytes in many entries would be nice for me. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 04:33, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
  • FWIW, I agree as well, not least as there is simply so much overlap between the various Chinese languages/dialects. It just seems wrong to have the headword and etym duplicated so many times over one single page. And most defs, too, at that.
Though that does raise the question of how to handle cases where the same word has different definitions in the different langs/lects. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 04:44, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Regional words can be marked with Category:Regional context labels (or, if it exists in too many varieties, simply "dialectal"). Wyang (talk) 04:49, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Hmmm. 'Chinese' is linguistically inaccurate and likely to cause a godawful mess. On the bright side, we already have a godawful mess that is arguably worse. The pronunciation section could also be solved by means of Lua if all topolects go straight from romanisation to IPA without a hitch (Lua will hopefully also remove the need for overly complex templates like py-to-ipa and grc-ipa-rows). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:02, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
@Wyang. All depends how strong the case is, how you present it. You need to know the moods of other Chinese editors and your possible opponents - their arguments. The arguments will need to be addressed. I'd hate to set up votes myself, since my only vote on banning entries like "Planck常数" in Chinese failed (Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-10/Mixed script Mandarin entries), even with a compromised solution to having them as soft redirects. I would probably support your idea in the vote. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:04, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Just wondering, what would the potential "godawful mess" be like? Wyang (talk) 05:37, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Well, I'll try to explain more clearly. This approach, or to be exact an approach very similar to this approach is, what they use at zh.wikt, right? It works at zh.wikt because Chinese is something that everybody there knows and that enough people are willing to upkeep. Around here, the merge wouldn't be pretty. Sure, Hakka and Wu will go without a fight. But Cantonese entries, for example, will sometimes diverge from other languages or have a different level of detail and merging those will often take a human, not to mention that I'm already assuming that somebody is running a bot to do all the easy parts and to import data from zh.wikt, most likely. There are a lot of characters and shared words. So, if you're volunteering to write and run a bot, to sift through entries and to edit your way through massive categories, I still might not support, but I wouldn't oppose. The problem is that if we don't have someone, we could get a mess at least as bad as this one, especially if our format got frozen half-and-half Chinese-based/topolect-based or something horrible like that. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:04, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

For technical reasons, we really oughn't to have a slash in the title... —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:43, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Is the m/s actually a part of the reconstruction, or does it indicate alternative reconstructions? Normally, alternative forms get their own page. —CodeCat 23:47, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
It is part of the reconstruction; there is often variability in the prefix. I see it seems to be uninterpretable by {{reconstructed}}. Don't know how to fix it though - perhaps create a {{reconstructed/sit-pro}}? Wyang (talk) 23:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't know anything about Sino-Tibetan, but are you saying that *m/s- is a prefix, but it's not known whether it was *m- or *s-? —CodeCat 23:53, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
*m- and *s- were the prefixes reconstructable that could be added to the stem/root to form derivatives. So the whole etymon (treated as a single unit, a word family which would contain multiple allofams) is written *m/s-. Wyang (talk) 23:57, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Doesn't that technically mean that no single form is actually reconstructable for Proto-Sino-Tibetan proper? If this word has two different prefixes that cannot be cognates, then it seems to me that this word didn't actually exist in PST but was only formed later, and that one branch used s- while the other used m-. —CodeCat 00:16, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
It is possible for differently prefixed forms to exist in a language simultaneously, with the derived words having divergent or largely identical meanings. For example: ཉལ་བ. Wyang (talk) 00:21, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology of Latvian tirgus

As per you requested on the talk page, I have just added an etymology to that word (plus examples, derived terms, and a picture). --Pereru (talk) 09:51, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Looks great as usual. Wyang (talk) 23:30, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

[edit] All those ko new templates

What are they for? And why so many? —CodeCat 14:44, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

They allow for semi-automated creation of Korean entries and IPA transcriptions. Very helpful, too. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:29, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes. For edits like the one at 경쟁력. Wyang (talk) 23:30, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Why not just write a Module that does it? That wouldn't require dozens of templates and would be much easier to do. —CodeCat 23:39, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
I find MediaWiki code more familiar to work with. I've never used Lua before (so it probably wouldn't be easier, for me..). Wyang (talk) 23:42, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
The more I work with Lua, the more I realise how useful it is. It allows you to remove templates and parameters that aren't actually necessary because Lua is able to split strings and look at individual characters. A Lua function that converts, say, Hangul to IPA could be written in only a few lines of code. —CodeCat 00:09, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
OK, will study this when I have time. (A few lines probably won't be enough, considering the complexities in Korean phonology). Wyang (talk) 09:43, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I dimly remember reading about the reason that the afterworld is associated with yellow springs, but it's been quite a while and I've forgotten most of the story. Could you add something about that to the etym, assuming of course that you're familiar with the tale? It's a bit obscure otherwise.  :) -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 15:29, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Sure, added. Don't know if my explanation is understandable though :) Wyang (talk) 03:57, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Mandarin translation of dowsing

Thanks for splitting the SoP translation. I was just being lazy. It's so much easier just to use the JavaScript tool. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

No worries. Wyang (talk) 23:33, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Middle Chinese → Sino-Xenic

I was looking around the Tubes for a handy chart showing how Middle Chinese initials, medials, and finals generally change upon entrance into Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese, but I could only find charts with example words, for the most part, not generalizations about the phonemes. To what degree is it in fact predictable, and if that degree is high enough, is there a chart anywhere? Thank you —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:51, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty confused... *nyijH and *sijH have the same syllable coda and tone AFAICT. The Sino-Japanese descendants have the same vowel, but the Korean and Vietnamese ones don't. Why is that? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:20, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
There are detailed explanations of how each Middle Chinese initial/final/tone corresponds to modern Chinese and Sinoxenic readings in many publications written in CJKV languages, however maybe not so much in English. I had a search of Wikipedia and could only find this rather (unnecessarily) rudimentary page at Sino-Japanese vocabulary; the other language versions are more detailed: ja:音読み, ja:漢音, ja:呉音, ko:한국 한자음, zh:漢越音. As for predictability, I estimate 90-95% of modern readings to be regular. The percentage is a lot less in Chinese varieties with prominent literary/colloquial distinctions. The reason for the difference in the vowels is the difference in MC initials. This -ij rhyme corresponds to:
  • Japanese: -i
  • Middle Korean: -uy (velar and laryngeal initials) (> Modern i), -o (coronal sibilant initials) (> a), -i (else)
  • Vietnamese: -ư (coronal sibilant initials), -i/y (else)

Wyang (talk) 07:45, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

I see, excellent. And thank you for the Wikipedia links; they are very slow reading for me, but better than the English resources by far. How often does the initial affect the vowel like that? (PS: All you have to do is learn Lua and you will be worthy of worship. Your knowledge is impressive in the extreme.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:14, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm flattered :) Influence by initial or medial glide is very common. Almost every rime corresponds to multiple finals in the modern language, with the exact reflex depending on initial or glide (-y-, -w-, -ɣ-). Just found a good Wikipedia article explaining the correspondence between MC finals and Beijing Mandarin ones: Middle Chinese finals. Wyang (talk) 00:31, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Found an issue

Sorry to bug you. Please read Template_talk:ja-romaji#Category:Japanese_romaji_without_a_main_entry. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:30, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Replied there. Wyang (talk) 06:47, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
The problem keeps coming back, please see Template_talk:ja-romaji#Category:Japanese_romaji_without_a_main_entry. We have removed all deprecated parameters, so it should be easier to code. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:43, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi,

Please say if you have an opinion on this topic. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:35, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Wyang, I love the automatic entry-creation script, but the IPA they generate seems to be incorrect. See 拆開 for example. Is this fixable? ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:48, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, but how is the IPA incorrect? Wyang (talk) 01:01, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Also, that template allows more functions:
|type= : 21 (eg. 市政厅), 12, 22 (if length > 2)
|e1= , |e2= : new etymology section, definitions for the first and second characters
|c1= , |c2= : if components for etymology are different from the first and second characters
| : more definitions
|wp= : link to zh.wikipedia
eg.
市政厅: {{subst:cmn new/a|p1=shì|p2=zhèng|p3=tīng|n|[[city]] [[council]]|type=21|c1=市政|c2=厅|e1=municipal government|e2=hall; designation for a certain level of government|wp=y}}
落實: {{subst:cmn new/a|p1=luò|p2=shí|a|[[workable]]; [[practical]]|v|to [[implement]]; to [[put into effect]]|e1=to fall, to settle|e2=true, real}}
Wyang (talk) 01:10, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Thank you, that's extremely helpful. I don't actually speak IPA but, I dunno, it doesn't look right to me. E.g. at 内地 is that really how it's written? So many numbers... ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:15, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
That's just the tones and the tone sandhis in Beijing Mandarin. Superscripts 1-5 are the same as tone symbols ˩˨˧˦˥; they are easier to recognise typographically. Wyang (talk) 01:19, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Wyang, how do you invoke the accelerated entry creation? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:50, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
I got, thanks. Have you documented the code somewhere? c1 and c2 don't seem to work. I tried {{subst:cmn new/a|p1=shì|p2=zhèng|p3=tīng|n|[[city]] [[council]]|type=21|c1=市政|c2=厅|e1=municipal government|e2=hall; designation for a certain level of government|wp=y}}. Also how do you create entries for simp. or trad. only (not both)?--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:58, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
It worked when I tried on 市政厅 ([3]). The instructions are at {{cmn new}}. This code is for one entry only, so for simp+trad, you have to submit the code on both pages, and for one of simp/trad, it's one submission at the missing entry. Wyang (talk) 04:10, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Nice tool!I got it to work with the shorter version (cmn new/a) on 废除 and 廢除
User:Ruakh has developed a nifty tool (User:Ruakh/Tbot.js) for accelerated Russian entries creation from translation sections. I enabled it here. Do you think you could create the same for Mandarin? Just clicking on a red link (green if the script is enabled) in translations creates an entry in Russian. I'm just filling the rest manually (inflection, etc.). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:28, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
The cases are a little different. In translations {{t|cmn for trad is not assigned a transcription, so it would not (?) be possible to extract pinyin for the missing trad entry. I'm not used to writing .js things like that, so having me to digest what's written there probably will take days. The current code is simple enough, for me... Wyang (talk) 04:41, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
I thought I'd let you know. The transcription for trad. is the same as for simpl., so tr= can be copied from simplified.
After enabling 'cmn' and clicking on the green link (减弱 - appears green on mine in Translation section) in abate#Translations I instantaneously got this:
  =={{subst:cmn}}==    ===Verb===  {{head|cmn|verb|tr=jiǎnruò}}    # [[abate]] {{gloss|to bring down or reduce to a lower state}}
The gloss, the part of speech, tr is all there, only the code is generic and uses {{t|head. I find both yours and his work amazing pieces for accelerated development, keep up the good job. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:52, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
With cmn the trad-simp conversion has to be done in addition, which is preferably achieved through substitution of existing trad-simp lists (which is what {{cmn_new is doing). I envisaged filling a missing entry with the code {{subst:cmn new/a|p1=PINYIN|PoS|defn}} when clicked, then having to decompose the PINYIN into syllables separated by |p2= etc. Since trad form is not assigned a |tr= in translation sections, one would have to copy the pinyin manually. So for simp it's one extra step of decomposition of PINYIN, while for trad it's two extra steps. The overall process is not hugely simpler than substituting {{cmn_new from scratch, that way the definition and SoPness are also checked (which is important for cmn as the definitions are likely different from the translation glosses). Wyang (talk) 05:04, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Adding new languages

Hi,

Sorr to be a nuisance. Could you please write a basic script to create new Russian and Japanese entries (in this order) like you did for Mandarin, Korean and Vietnamese?

A basic Russian (ru) noun entry is very simple but it needs gender (g) and transliteration. For example: "лютик" - a buttercup (leaving the entry uncreated)

  =={{subst:ru}}==    ===Noun===  {{ru-noun|tr=ljútik|g=m}}    # [[buttercup]]

Interjections, conjunctions, particles, prepositions use {{head||ru|preposition... Japanese entries are more complicated, divided into hiragana, katakana, kanji and I don't know if it's feasible. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:45, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

No worries. Russian one done at {{ru new}}. Don't really know how Japanese entries should be formatted. If you can point to me all format possibilities, that'd be great. Wyang (talk) 01:12, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Wow! That was quick. Thank you! Will test and come with some feedback. Japanese can be basic and more complex, depends how far you're willing to go. Didn't give as I didn't know if you would agree. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:36, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Japanese should be alright. Forms are easy to detect (see if it's a pure hiragana or katakana string, assign it as such if so; otherwise, kanji if no kana present, mixed if kana present), and script conversion shouldn't be an issue as well (hira to kana and to romaji, or the reverses, depending on requirement). Wyang (talk) 01:40, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
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